Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

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Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Admin on Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:08 pm

Only one Elder God is notable here, for only Kar'Kaish applies to this specific lore. Kar'Kaish, using her own power, moved through the universe, finally settling on a planet to influence. Her power was derived from the conflict of Chaos and Order that flowed through The Beginner's mind (The Beginner being the gods' way of referencing the being that created all), so she created two sets of gods, those who preferred life, and those that preferred death. She ordered these gods to populate the planet with followers, as such beings would surely amuse her.

Both the life and death gods did her bidding, and created a race of demons, a contortion of both life and death. However, they made this new race too powerful and too numerous, and, knowing their creators' folly, they joined in rebellion against them to become Kar'Kaish's chosen. The demons seemed to be winning due to the gods' disagreement as to how to rid themselves of the demons, until both death and life gods took their own agendas to heart, and unleashed their own terrible powers to undo the demons.

The dual powers formed a paradox, and so did not undo the demons, but instead shifted their existance into a different plane of reality. This plane only contained the land of Kar'Kaish for it was formed specifically for the paradox, although Kar'Kaish could not form dominion over it lest she be destroyed. Kar'Kaish noticed this, and quickly acted to reverse the effects of the paradox on the stronger demons, sealing them in a different plane of reality within her own, forming orbs.

The gods of life and death saw their failure due to their differences, and sought out to quell one another so that they may have complete control. The conflict between the two fueled Kar'Kaish's power, and as they raged war on the planet's surface, she used her growing power to shape the world. Eventually the gods of Life triumphed, and, not being able to destroy the same energy they were made of, sealed the death gods under the surface of the planet.

With her power waning from this one-sided victory, she influenced the beings the life gods began to create, forcing them to have flaws that would end in conflict later. With this influence going unnoticed, she retreated from her work and began to watch. And so, the life gods went to work, creating the races that now inhabit Ara'niel.

Tags: The Beginner, Kar'Kaish, Kaishae, Life Gods, Death Gods, Daemons, The Chaos War


Last edited by Admin on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Admin on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:41 pm

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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:33 am

Creation Story 101 wrote:The dual powers formed a paradox, and so did not undo the demons, but instead shifted their existance into a different plane of reality. This plane only contained the land of Kar'Kaish for it was formed specifically for the paradox, although Kar'Kaish could not form dominion over it lest she be destroyed.

So here's a question: Is this saying that the resulting paradox was such a powerful reaction that it created an entirely NEW PLANE in the same sense of the word used when talking about the Corporeal, Spectral, Elemental, Astral, and "Emptiness and Void" planes? Or is something slightly different meant?

Additionally, if that IS what was meant, then when it then says that Kar'Kaish (KK) couldn't "form dominion" over it lest she be destroyed, what would "form dominion over" entail exactly? She apparently still retained ability to exert some level of power/control over the plane, as she was able to reach within it to counter some of the paradoxical effects fueling its separate formation to save some demons from it.

Again, going with the understanding that some new plane was formed in the original sense as used in Formation of Planes and the Elements (Order: 1), what should we call this plane? I would go with either Ara'niel after the planet itself if that's the only thing that got sucked into this paradox-fueled demi-plane, or if the whole solar system or additional surrounding space from the corporeal plane went with it, I would say we should just call it RoKK.

When the demi-plane took the planet of Ara'niel (and whatever other surrounding space), did it only take that chunk out of the Corporeal plane, or did it likewise take with it the chunk of the Spectral plane that mirrored/was tied to that chunk of the Corporeal plane? While I'd probably guess that it took the chunk of the Spectral plane with it, if there's no already concluded answer to this question, I'd say that it might be more interesting to say that only the corporeal plane chunk was taken. That would leave more room for interesting exploration of planar forces withing the context of RoKK (the forum/world, not just specifically the demi-plane)

Continuing in this vein, if KK's ability to directly influence events within the RoKK demi-plane were only proportional to the level of conflict between the life and death forces/gods she'd created (as they were now the most powerful beings within the demi-plane), and if KK couldn't use the bulk of her power directly in this new demi-plane without very high levels of such conflict, can we infer from this that the Elder Gods, while extremely (unlimitedly?) powerful within the context of the twin Corporeal/Spectral planes which they simultaneously inhabit, have very limited ability to directly use their great power outside of their twinned planar dominion (Corporeal/Spectral Planes)?

Um, I think that's all I've got to ask for now. Thanks!


Edit: Just got through re-reading the Tilbury article. There's mention within it that a presence was felt gathering in the Spectral Plane from the perspective of those within the Corporeal Plane. This would suggest that the chunk of the Spectral Plane which twinned the chunk of the Corporeal that was taken into the creation of the demi-plane of RoKK was in fact taken into the demi-plane as well, making it a twinned-demi plane? Just thought I should bring that observation over here since it seems relevant to my questions.

Additionally, I forgot to mention above the very important fact that nobody (KK, the Life/Death gods, or anyone else) ever undid the creation of the (apparently twinned?) demi-plane containing Ara'niel and whatever other space)


Last edited by Caligstro Smith on Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:36 am

Oh, uh, sorry for the double post, but I forgot something:

There's a tag on this article "Kaishae"

What is that? The word's not actually in the article, so I dunno what to make of it exactly?


Also, I wanted to just point out the amusing fact that my questions on this article and extrapolations on those questions were collectively LONGER than the article itself. Haha.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:49 pm

Oh, I might have found the "Kaishae" -- is this referring to the official/given name of the Life and Death Gods? The name "Kishae" is used in the first paragraph of the "Difference of Mortal Magic" secion of the "Nature of Mana and Mortal Magic" thread in the Magic and the Divine forum. I'm assuming that these are supposed to be the same thing? Which is the correct spelling? "Kishae" is easier to say.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by MidgetNinja on Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:09 pm

You are a poster boy for reading to much into things...especially when those things are typos.

It is most annoying actually.

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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:23 pm

I apologize if it annoys you. I was acting under the assumption that it was a typo in one or the other of them and that both referred to the same thing (the Life/Death gods), but since I only saw each spelling once I wanted to know which was intended. I wasn't trying to read into it that there might be two separate sets of beings or anything. Please don't take it the wrong way.

And if the whole demi-plane/twinned-demi-plane thing is "reading too much into it" I'd think that knowing that the world of RoKK is separately contained within its own plane separated but connected to the originating Corporeal/Spectral twinned planes is relevant. Any sort of material (existing or future) related to planar connection, transport, etc would be affected by that knowledge.

Additionally, if Kar'Kaish has limited ability to directly influence events within the demi-plane (presumably because it's no longer directly a part of the twinned Corporeal/Spectral planes she inhabits), then that would also be very relevant, especially if the extrapolation that Elder Gods in general have limited ability to directly influence events outside their twin planes was decided to be true within the canon of this world. I asked that and looked closely at the planar relations and what those relations would mean because it affects what sort of new content can be introduced without conflict.

You were the one who posted the thread asking about the extended universe of RoKK. Information of this sort of nature would be very important if you wanted to do extended universe stuff outside of the RoKK world, using stuff maybe connected to other Elder Gods, or other planes, etc. And even more so if you wanted to somehow connect the existing RoKK canon with the extended universe at some point.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:10 pm

Caligstro Smith wrote:
Creation Story 101 wrote:The dual powers formed a paradox, and so did not undo the demons, but instead shifted their existance into a different plane of reality. This plane only contained the land of Kar'Kaish for it was formed specifically for the paradox, although Kar'Kaish could not form dominion over it lest she be destroyed.

So here's a question: Is this saying that the resulting paradox was such a powerful reaction that it created an entirely NEW PLANE in the same sense of the word used when talking about the Corporeal, Spectral, Elemental, Astral, and "Emptiness and Void" planes? Or is something slightly different meant?

It's similar to the same sense. This is also one of the more retconnable events since it incorporates a lot of handwavium. What is meant is that the use of two opposing forces in concert onto beings created of two opposing powers already caused a lot of crap to happen all at once, termed a 'paradox'. Since they couldn't destroy the daemons, the daemons were forced into sort of a pocket-universe, a plane, specifically tied to the planet as opposed to a full-fledged plane (such as the ones you've listed).


Additionally, if that IS what was meant, then when it then says that Kar'Kaish (KK) couldn't "form dominion" over it lest she be destroyed, what would "form dominion over" entail exactly? She apparently still retained ability to exert some level of power/control over the plane, as she was able to reach within it to counter some of the paradoxical effects fueling its separate formation to save some demons from it.

She couldn't just walk into the place and exert absolute control over everything like she does in the corporeal plane. She couldn't go in there and make or destroy at her whim. If she tried to assert absolute control, it'd be sort of like breaking the rules of reality. The Elder Gods can't just go around and assert dominion over everything. She understood this as it was happening. So, as the entire thing is going down, she stopped the Kishae from destroying all of the daemons, changed the nature of the paradox to not be so great nor so complete, and she stopped it from taking some of the stronger daemons that she wanted to keep around. She did this as everything was happening, not after it happened.


Again, going with the understanding that some new plane was formed in the original sense as used in Formation of Planes and the Elements (Order: 1), what should we call this plane? I would go with either Ara'niel after the planet itself if that's the only thing that got sucked into this paradox-fueled demi-plane, or if the whole solar system or additional surrounding space from the corporeal plane went with it, I would say we should just call it RoKK.

Ara'niel is the name for one continent, although we do call the planet by that name from time to time. I don't think there's been an official ruling though.
All that was 'sucked in' to what I suppose we can call the Daemonplane, were the daemons, and a shadow copy of the planet. Nothing else. And before you ask what a shadow copy means, it's like the plane itself is a mirror of the planet, so essentially there's a copy of the planet for that plane, but it's not completely the same thing. Sort of like a physical reflection I guess. Something to be analyzed further.


When the demi-plane took the planet of Ara'niel (and whatever other surrounding space), did it only take that chunk out of the Corporeal plane, or did it likewise take with it the chunk of the Spectral plane that mirrored/was tied to that chunk of the Corporeal plane? While I'd probably guess that it took the chunk of the Spectral plane with it, if there's no already concluded answer to this question, I'd say that it might be more interesting to say that only the corporeal plane chunk was taken. That would leave more room for interesting exploration of planar forces withing the context of RoKK (the forum/world, not just specifically the demi-plane)

Didn't take the planet, question is unanswerable.


Continuing in this vein, if KK's ability to directly influence events within the RoKK demi-plane were only proportional to the level of conflict between the life and death forces/gods she'd created (as they were now the most powerful beings within the demi-plane), and if KK couldn't use the bulk of her power directly in this new demi-plane without very high levels of such conflict, can we infer from this that the Elder Gods, while extremely (unlimitedly?) powerful within the context of the twin Corporeal/Spectral planes which they simultaneously inhabit, have very limited ability to directly use their great power outside of their twinned planar dominion (Corporeal/Spectral Planes)?

I think the root of your question still assumes that everything was taken by the demi-plane. However, some things should be clarified. KK doesn't really require the power of conflict to have complete dominion. As an Elder God, she has complete dominion as a part of her being. However, conflict is what she seeks, is what she desires, and it's sort of like ambrosia to her. Without it, I suppose she'd be feeling very lethargic and bored. It's less that she's unable to do something, more that she becomes less inclined to do anything.
Yes, the Elder Gods have very limited capability to directly use their powers outside of the Corporeal and Spectral Planes.


Edit: Just got through re-reading the Tilbury article. There's mention within it that a presence was felt gathering in the Spectral Plane from the perspective of those within the Corporeal Plane. This would suggest that the chunk of the Spectral Plane which twinned the chunk of the Corporeal that was taken into the creation of the demi-plane of RoKK was in fact taken into the demi-plane as well, making it a twinned-demi plane? Just thought I should bring that observation over here since it seems relevant to my questions.

Question inapplicable at the moment, since there's no demi-plane as you think it is.


Additionally, I forgot to mention above the very important fact that nobody (KK, the Life/Death gods, or anyone else) ever undid the creation of the (apparently twinned?) demi-plane containing Ara'niel and whatever other space)

You're right, no one has reversed the sealing of the Daemons other than some of the Daemons being kept from being sealed.

Caligstro Smith wrote:Oh, uh, sorry for the double post, but I forgot something:

There's a tag on this article "Kaishae"

What is that? The word's not actually in the article, so I dunno what to make of it exactly?


Also, I wanted to just point out the amusing fact that my questions on this article and extrapolations on those questions were collectively LONGER than the article itself. Haha.
Caligstro Smith wrote:Oh, I might have found the "Kaishae" -- is this referring to the official/given name of the Life and Death Gods? The name "Kishae" is used in the first paragraph of the "Difference of Mortal Magic" secion of the "Nature of Mana and Mortal Magic" thread in the Magic and the Divine forum. I'm assuming that these are supposed to be the same thing? Which is the correct spelling? "Kishae" is easier to say.

Typo, it's supposed to be Kishae. The tag system is something I tried to implement to keep ideas connected to one another, sort of like a wiki (we looked into getting a wiki at one point, but I was unhappy with all of the free wiki services at the time so we decided to try the tag system).

Kishae is the collective term for both the Life and Death Gods.

Caligstro Smith wrote:I apologize if it annoys you. I was acting under the assumption that it was a typo in one or the other of them and that both referred to the same thing (the Life/Death gods), but since I only saw each spelling once I wanted to know which was intended. I wasn't trying to read into it that there might be two separate sets of beings or anything. Please don't take it the wrong way.

Pointing out important typos like this is perfectly fine and pretty important so question like this in the future can be avoided.


And if the whole demi-plane/twinned-demi-plane thing is "reading too much into it" I'd think that knowing that the world of RoKK is separately contained within its own plane separated but connected to the originating Corporeal/Spectral twinned planes is relevant. Any sort of material (existing or future) related to planar connection, transport, etc would be affected by that knowledge.

Inapplicable.


Additionally, if Kar'Kaish has limited ability to directly influence events within the demi-plane (presumably because it's no longer directly a part of the twinned Corporeal/Spectral planes she inhabits), then that would also be very relevant, especially if the extrapolation that Elder Gods in general have limited ability to directly influence events outside their twin planes was decided to be true within the canon of this world. I asked that and looked closely at the planar relations and what those relations would mean because it affects what sort of new content can be introduced without conflict.

Inapplicable.


You were the one who posted the thread asking about the extended universe of RoKK. Information of this sort of nature would be very important if you wanted to do extended universe stuff outside of the RoKK world, using stuff maybe connected to other Elder Gods, or other planes, etc. And even more so if you wanted to somehow connect the existing RoKK canon with the extended universe at some point.

True, clarification of all of these things is necessary to establish a good enough base line to expand the RoKK universe.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:13 pm

Ah, yes, you are correct that many of my questions were acting under the assumption that when it said
"This plane only contained the land of Kar'Kaish"
it meant that the actual planet itself was taken, not a shadowy copy created for the purpose of ONLY containing the demons.

Honestly in retrospect, I'm not sure exactly how I mis-read it, but I'd somehow read that paragraph and gotten out of it that the paradox made the demons inert AND shifted the planet into a new demi-plane (separate effects, not linked). To further clarify my misunderstanding (so you know that I wasn't just trying to ask annoying questions), I mentioned that KK couldn't exert her power over the plane without the confict b/c I thought she was grabbing them afterwards, not before/during the effects of demi-plane creation, and that the planet was actually taken into it, and that therefore the existence of great confict would make it easier for her to exert the little control she has outside the Corporeal/Spectral Planes. Obviously this was all a totally wrong interpretation and I apologize for the confusion and load of "inapplicable" questions it spawned.

At least a few interesting points still came out of it, like that Elder Gods have limited power outside the Corporeal/Spectral plane(s), which I didn't know before.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:50 pm

It's fine. I know that you're not asking annoying questions, you only do when you're being troll-y and you seem pretty serious so it's fine. Plus, I know that you approach stuff like this in the same manner you approach tabletop rpgs, so I sort of expected this, lol.

I understand how it can be misinterpreted. More fluff and development will be added at a later date to fix some of that.
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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by CromTheConqueror on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:21 am

Just to build on what Chaos said Caligro continue to ask good questions. Your mind seems to run like a machine and is great at picking out disparities in writing. I think what MN said was more in jest than anything. Anytime someone writes a five paragraphs about something that isn't actually applicable it is kind of funny. I personally don't mind it because even if what you ask doesn't apply it makes my imagination work more but if you want to save yourself some time you might just ask a few quick clarification questions before going into that deep analysis.

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Re: Creation Lore of Ara'niel (Order: 2)

Post by Caligstro Smith on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:45 pm

Hahaha, was it really five paragraphs? Goodness.

Really I went as far with it as I did because

1) I was afraid if I just did a couple clarifications first that I'd forget my whole train of thought before I came back

and

2) Because I was really liking where that train of thought was going and was kinda hoping it'd be right, or at least a decent chunk of it would be (or alternatively that the answers hadn't been fully considered/formed yet and that my interesting speculation might urge the resolution in its favor)

CromTheConqueror wrote:I personally don't mind it because even if what you ask doesn't apply it makes my imagination work more

Glad my lengthy, yet sadly irrelevant musings have helped others and weren't entirely for naught. More fuel for the imagination is always a victory in the end.
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